Miniatures sizes and description, etc ... [Archive]

Frustrated Father

07-19-2006, 11:30 AM

EVer since I started up with Wyrd, one of the things that I keep hearing from folks, in an almost 'nasty' manner at times, is 'omg, what the hell, these would be great but they are in the wrong scale!' or 'I'm confused by what 32mm heroic is', even when you give them exact measurements or other companies to compare to.

It boggles the mind, it really, really does.

So my question is, am I describing these wrong, can they be told in another way, or are there just folks out there that no matter what are a few cards short of a full deck and don't get it, even when you give them comparable companies to match up with (Reaper, Privateer Press .. hell GW even for that matter).

Does the whole 32mm thing throw folks off? I think Privateer Press actually describes theirs as 30mm yes? Reaper does 28mm 'heroic' but hey, if you haven't measured a miniature of theirs in some time, you'll find they are WAY past that. Should I just drop the description altogether? Better way to describe it?

Now I know there are you die hard folks out there with your 28mm. That's all good - if that is your scale, then Wyrd isn't going to suit you, though I do get a tad 'irked' to hear 'too bad they chose the wrong scale'. Heh. Alrighty there buddy.

Anyhow, most of these questions usually stem from news over at TMP, which generally I like to read, but have found, more than anything of late, that there are some rather 'dense' folks at times when it comes to this sort of stuff. But maybe that's just me.

Curious for your imput.

Ritual

07-19-2006, 11:43 AM

I don't think I'll ever understand this hang-up some have about 28 mm scale. I understand that those who game with 28 mm minis want to use 28 mm minis and not 32 mm or 35 mm ones. But they also seem to want to force everyone to either make strict 28 mm scale or strict 54 mm scale and that to have something inbetween or close to these would be some kind of abomination and a danger to the entire mini industry.

As long as the scale is defined I see no problem having different scales.

vincegamer

07-19-2006, 12:03 PM

No prob if you're painting show pieces.
I'd guess the vast majority of game armies out there are GW "28"mm.
People see great stuff from makers other than GW and think hey, that would make a cool and unique hero for my army. But then they see it's not exactly to scale. They think how hard it may be to squeeze him onto a 28mm base and how awkward he'd look towering over the rest of the unit and they are put off.

So, would it be possible to keep a photo on your site with a line-up of figures from various manufacturers? What if it was done in silhouette?

supervike

07-19-2006, 12:25 PM

I tend to be a bit scale anal....Not overly, but it does concern me.

Its not so much that I game, but I just want my minis to look realistic together...I don't care so much that a few are taller or shorter, as that adds realism. I just don't like the HUGE differences.

I ordered some Darkson Design ALT. WW2 minis a while back...They are supposedly 28 mm, but that has to be measured to their chins or something....I like them, but the scale really turns me off.

As does the scale with my Forgeworld buildings....even a 'normal' sized mini would have to squeeze through the front door.....

As to whether you should keep the 32 mm moniker...I say YES, just because it does help to have an idea on how big they are....Maybe even have a link on the site that shows them next to a ruler, or next to 'popular' minis.

Frustrated Father

07-19-2006, 12:25 PM

Been done before, Eric did a line up some time back (I'll dig up the picture). The thing is, these miniatures are pretty much in scale with the other lines out there and folks really just aren't getting past the whole measurement bit as I suppose not many folks bother to take a ruler out and take a look at what size miniatures they have in hand.

Silhouette, likely not, as hell, I remember that one gal, Sophie (can't remember her company name but she did a plague marine, treant, giant, etc) did that and got a nice little letter from GW over that.

The problem is I think, that many of these companies out there have pieces that fit right nicely with the Wyrd line, and by that I mean size wise, but folks just don't seem to understand it, even when given the sizes of them or even comprable companies. Thus I'm trying to find another solution.

Keep telling them 32mm 'heroic' or just drop it altogether? Find another way to describe them, or is it just a choice few that, no matter what, will bitch and bawl because it wasn't handed to them on a silver platter and isn't 28mm, etc.

EricJ

07-19-2006, 12:30 PM

I still think it's funny about reaper minis, who just keep saying 28mm despite put out some that are probably closer to 38mm

And no one seems to complain about that...

I don't really see anything to do, and it's in the category of "can't please everyone, all the time"

Frustrated Father

07-19-2006, 12:31 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/EricJ/Wyrd/Sizes.jpg

Here we go for the line up that Eric did a bit back.

I went and pulled out some Sisters Repentia and they are actually as tall as Viktoria so perhaps I should take a picture there. Have two Werner girlies done for Reaper that I just dug out as well and put them up beside the miniatures and they are in line with size as well, one larger, one just a touch smaller.

Believe me, I'm not having a rant here, I'm basically trying to find the best way to display, advertise and generally get the information out in an accurate manner.

Well .. I am having a small rant. Just gets me arse a bit when folks immediately toss something to the side without actually looking at what their scale of miniatures truely are vs taking the whole 28mm heroic bit to heart.

And yup, completely agree with you Eric, I can't, but damned if I don't try. Heh.

SteveB

07-19-2006, 12:32 PM

You're probably screwed. I know I've had all kinds of problems straight from hell over Spyglass. People don't measure. They just don't know. All they know is (generalisation I know)

GW is 28mm (wrong)

and

LotR is 25mm (also wrong).

Nathan I should like to introduce Mr Head to Mr Wall.

Frustrated Father

07-19-2006, 12:34 PM

:frusty:

:iam:

mirlo

07-19-2006, 12:46 PM

It's the historical crowd to blame. They're old and probably going blind. They just don't understand any other term than '28mm' like they don't understand their childrens music. They don't even know what 28mm is, it's just something they heard somewhere.

Sergeant_Crunch

07-19-2006, 01:50 PM

Well, the other problem is 28mm (or 32, 54, etc...) from where to where. Some folks measure from bottom of the foot to eye level, others from foot to top of head, and some will even include whatever apparel is on the head. One thing I hate about the way minis are marketed is that 25mm isn't a scale, it's a measurement. a scale would be 25mm:1.5m (1/60 scale). This would be the actual scale of the mini and make my life a heck of a lot easier when it comes to making terrain for my games. I think that's why I like CAV so much, it's 1/160 scale, not 6mm, 15mm or some other measurement. Now, granted there are some variations (aircraft specifically, but that's slowly being fixed) but the vast majority is in that scale. My suggestion is buck the Xmm system and give the actual scale. Of course that would confuse all the stupid people out there.

Wow, didn't really mean for that to turn into a rant.

vincegamer

07-19-2006, 03:01 PM

Here's a pic I took back in April of some female minis next to a 1:43 scale car.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/vincegamer/carshowgirls.jpg

Hasslefree Tiriel; Dark Sword Amazon; SJB Alejandra (CMON); I-kore Commander X; Grenadier female evil warrior (1987).
I didn't have a Wyrd mini at the time but do now so maybe I'll do a new line-up. - I've since held Taelor next to the car and she looks just like she's giving directions :)

anywho, you can see that the middle 3 all look about the same height, but if you look closely, the Dark Sword mini is standing on a hill so she's actually smaller. Tyriel looks shorter, but she's not standing straight, so hard to tell, but "scale" I would say is the same because not all women are the same height IRL. That would go for Commander X who, if you look at her eyes and the fact that she's on tip-toe is still shorter than Alejandra.
Now the obvious difference is the old Grenadier mini who is actually 25mm from the soles of her feet to the top of her head. She appears to be a dwarf to these others.

So the short of it is, I think I'd be okay if the 4 newer ones were described as the same scale, but if the old one was included I'd be pissed off. (by the way, most of my minis were the old size and when I got back into collecting boy was I annoyed)

What about going for a more vague description such as "standard table-top gaming scale"?

Sergeant_Crunch

07-19-2006, 03:20 PM

What about going for a more vague description such as "standard table-top gaming scale"?

The trick is, which "standard" table-top gaming scale? Everyone has their favorite and think it should be the standard.

vincegamer

07-19-2006, 03:28 PM

But that's the point, isn't it?
These would fit in with most games, just probably not Confrontation or anything using 54mm. As far as I can tell all others are reasonably close in size.

Sergeant_Crunch

07-19-2006, 03:51 PM

Don't forget folks who use 6, 10, and 15mm which of course these would be too large for, unless they're being used as giants.

supervike

07-19-2006, 03:57 PM

cdukino

07-19-2006, 04:11 PM

Then 'eff' them all I say!

Convert your scale to INCHES! By garsh, you're an American and we don't like that fancy dancy millimeter scales anyhow. We don't like that goofy Futball thingy either. Everyone knows that a football is oval shaped, and meant to pass...long is preferable, especially if its for a touchdown. And what the hell is a lorry? A lorry is a girls name, not a full diesel bound 18 wheeled vehicle capable of transporting our beloved hot dogs and teevees.

And while were on it...I DON'T understand my kids music. Why does that lady have the best milkshakes in the yard? What ARE you going to do with all that Junk up in your trunk?

See....now THATS a rant!!

About football... that the heck.. it's foot ball... you know foot, on the most south region of your body... To kick the ball with... Hello... kick it once and then run around with a FOOTball becouse it's to clumsly shaped to actually work to kick....what's that?... you should call it runball then, tossball if you prefer, or who cares about the ball just ram into eachother, and the team with the least hospitalised players win.... sjeez.

LeadAsbestos

07-19-2006, 04:14 PM

That milkshake song is awesome!

FF- just have links to fansites w/ scale comparisons on them, and you should be able to bypass GW and their lawyers. As for what to call the scale, whatever. You'll piss someone off!

TMPers are notorious sticks-in-the-mud. At least the Frothers are fun!

LeadAsbestos

07-19-2006, 04:16 PM

Cdukino- if that is the case, shouldn't you folks call the thing on the end of your leg "33cms"?

I'm confused. 33centimetersball is an awfully clumsy name...

supervike

07-19-2006, 04:21 PM

vincegamer

07-19-2006, 04:31 PM

Cindy,
Don't be silly. If you kick the ball, it's kickball. Then you run bases after kicking it.
And if you're talking about that recent world cup, the half the time they were smacking the ball with their chests and faces. Maybe it should be called faceball.
I like the idea about the team with the least hospitalized players wins - but I think the British already do that; it's called Rugby.
Speaking of sport and the British - they got the craziest names. Why they have a sport no one can understand and named it after a tiny loud crop-eating insect.
You don't see Texans out playing a game of "locusts" do you?

Ritual

07-19-2006, 05:34 PM

you should call it runball then, tossball if you prefer.
... or rugby? But... then they would have to lose all their body armour and such and maybe they don't want to do that? :)

EDIT: It seems Vince already mentioned rugby.

Ritual

07-19-2006, 05:38 PM

Speaking of sport and the British - they got the craziest names. Why they have a sport no one can understand and named it after a tiny loud crop-eating insect.
They also have that thing when they roll a cheese down a hill and the entire town runs after it. I don't get that! How do you win that? It seems no one ever manages to catch the cheese.

vincegamer

07-19-2006, 06:15 PM

Of course then there's the Spanish sport of angering some bulls and letting them loose on the population once a year.

Frustrated Father

07-19-2006, 08:55 PM

Heh, ya'll cheered me up immensely reading this.

Patrick

07-19-2006, 10:16 PM

I'm right there with you Nathan! I got a little taste of scale-iosis with our previous releases over at the TMP. If the figures look comperable across the brands (which most recent ranges do as illustrated in the terrific photos folks posted) I don't see why everyone makes such a fuss.

Pr0fane

07-20-2006, 12:50 AM

Frustrated Father

07-20-2006, 02:21 AM

Might have to look into that, thanks.

A good site from what I've briefly glanced at. Glad someone is doing it.

Brimshack

07-20-2006, 07:23 AM

About football... that the heck.. it's foot ball... you know foot, on the most south region of your body... To kick the ball with... Hello... kick it once and then run around with a FOOTball becouse it's to clumsly shaped to actually work to kick....what's that?... you should call it runball then, tossball if you prefer, or who cares about the ball just ram into eachother, and the team with the least hospitalised players win.... sjeez.

What? We're American; we don't have to make sense. We carry a big green stick and talk like John Wayne, and that's makes us the cat's gollashes.

Anyway, our football is culturally superior for one very obvious reason, the huddle. The Huddle is what makes this the most important game in our world, you know, and that means it should be the most important game in your world too. Why is the huddle so important? Well that should be obvious. How else are you supposed to fit in a commercial? In worldwide football, people just keep playing and playing and they don't even take breaks. It's boring. We tried it here, and it sucks. Gotta sneak the commercials in the margins of the screen and stuff, which is way annoying to the viewer, and even more annoying to the ad people. You just don't love ad people enough Cindy; if you did you'd be nicer tothem and support a sport which makes their lives better.

A good sport has to have a chance for Nike to tell us what sportsfigure we want to emulate and for Mountain Dew to give us permission to be ourselves by drinking their soda. We need fake beer wars and car ads that make us feel instantly successful. because we identify with the yuppy guy and his nerdy but hot wife. After a good game people buy stuff. They buy stuff before a big game too, and if all goes well, heck, they buy stuff during the game. American football has far more action to it, because it frees up those dollars better than any mere European sport, and sometimes we even get to chuckle while we do it. Who cares what happens on the field. Baseball, Football, or Women's Nine-ball, the most imortant thing about any sport is the commercials, and until soccer comes up with a better commercial format, it will always be a second rate sport. Get a clue will ya!

Sheesh!

[/Sarcasm]

witchfire

07-20-2006, 09:15 AM

Here you go, a site that may help clear things up a bit. Nathan, they currently don't have Wyrd, but I would imagine you could rectify that shortcoming.

Wee Toy Soldiers (http://www.weetoysoldiers.com/wp/?page_id=167)

that's nice but i didn't see any DA, Wyrd or PP minis in there :dong:

those are the ones that counts for me

Pr0fane

07-20-2006, 09:23 AM

that's nice but i didn't see any DA, Wyrd or PP minis in there :dong:

those are the ones that counts for me
I'm on it, witchfire. At least from the Dark Age perspective. And I'm sure FF will get the Wyrd in there too...you'll have to pimp someone for the PP angle. ;)

vincegamer

07-20-2006, 09:47 AM

curse you and your evil link.
Now I want to buy stuff I'd never heard of before.

supervike

07-20-2006, 10:02 AM

Oh Vince...You've seen that link before!!

In fact I referenced it here:

http://wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?t=837

That would be a great link to have here on your website, or on the Wyrd Store....not that particular one, but a shot of all your minis, standing infront of measuring devices...

vincegamer

07-20-2006, 11:11 AM

But I believe it's been updated - or I didn't look past the one pic before - that old link isn't working now anyway.

supervike

07-20-2006, 01:16 PM

It sure has been updated...now you can select the minis one at a time and make your own lineup. Very cool feature. That site should be bookmarked.

Drake Farstrider

07-20-2006, 03:27 PM

Personally I donn't care if the mini is 25mm ,30mm or 32mm. people are not all the same height. My only conceren is that the mini is cool.

Cool link btw.

green stuff

07-20-2006, 03:46 PM

Personally I donn't care if the mini is 25mm ,30mm or 32mm. people are not all the same height. My only conceren is that the mini is cool.
My feelings exactly;)!

vincegamer

07-20-2006, 05:22 PM

Personally I donn't care if the mini is 25mm ,30mm or 32mm. people are not all the same height. My only conceren is that the mini is cool.

Cool link btw. Well, for 30 & 32 that makes sense, and as most 28 are actually taller than 28 it still works.
But if your army is 25mm and you add a 32mm figure, that figure is 28% taller than everyone else.
Given the average man is 5'10", the new guy would be 7'6".
Sure, people are different heights, and some are around 7'6" (I think that's Wilt Chamberlain's height) but it's extremely rare.
Going the other way, if most of your army is 32mm, then a 25mm mini would be like 4'6" - again, such people are out there, but other than children, they are rare (Danny DeVito is 5'2").

SteveB

07-20-2006, 05:39 PM

Except, when was the last time you saw a 25mm figure? Seriously. Like the 80s or something?

Even Lord of the Rings from GW is 28mm scalecreeping to 30mm

Brimshack

07-20-2006, 06:07 PM

It's interesting though, some folks have gotten so used to 28 being 32-34, that when they see a 30-32mm, they think it's a 25. I guess if youaren't actually talking to people who design the minis, you could easily mistake the shorthand "28" references for an accurate description.

supervike

07-20-2006, 06:19 PM

I think Danny Devito could totally take Wilt Chamberlin in a fight.

witchfire

07-20-2006, 07:20 PM

http://www.livewiregames.net/members/witchfire/images/minisize.JPG

Pr0fane

07-20-2006, 08:50 PM

Oh my. Father is a big fella, isn't he?

Sergeant_Crunch

07-20-2006, 11:30 PM

Or you could just say "screw-em" and give your miniature's measurements in cubits.

Malebolgia

07-21-2006, 05:47 AM

or pixels. After all most of us are looking at them on a screen ;)

green stuff

07-21-2006, 07:20 AM

@Malebolgia: Good point ;).

Matakishi

08-07-2006, 01:44 PM

I've come to this a bit late haven't I?
Oh well, I think I made my views clear over on TMP.

There are a lot of people who don't know how big their miniatures are. They can't picture how big your miniatures are because 32mm means nothing to them. They think their existing miniatures are 28mm and therefore yours are too big.

But then there are people like me, an old historical gamer incidently, who is perfectly aware both of the sizes of existing ranges and the size differences I am willing to tolerate in a game.

I buy your figures, the people who complain don't.
I doubt the complainers ever will buy your figures, no matter what lengths you go to to show them, they'll never see.

I must admit that their knee-jerk negative reactions make me want to punch them in the face and, obviously, I feel bad about this. I can only imagine how you must feel when you read that tripe.

Best to ignore it and flag them as the *bleep*tards (tm) they obviously are :)

Frustrated Father

08-07-2006, 06:47 PM

(chuckle) Thanks, appreciate this, and the post on TMP.

Steph-E

08-08-2006, 03:21 AM

size is not the matter. knowledge and feeling are playing the game!
Seriously, this is the egg/chiken problem. Why all company should have the same scale? Trying to invade the tabletop game of other company? noooo! If it's the reason, please read next.
I've working for 3 years for GW, in a mani stores in France. All customers wants some Citadel Minis to play, nothing ells. Confrontation players wants Rackham minis and nothing ells.
The most important is that in a same collection, all minis looks same scaled. Not the same size, but same scale. dont forget that the legs position can change the size on a mini is you're mesuring from bottom feet to shoulder/eyes/ top of head/ top of hat.
dont forget that a "little fat ass" can be the same scale as sexy "mister Univers", but not the same size. The size of the head, according to me is a good locate.

Przemas

08-08-2006, 05:16 AM

Nathan I should like to introduce Mr Head to Mr Wall.

:laugh:

well, just got a batch of Wyrd minis and definietly they match the scale of the other popular manufacturers. to be honest i was quite surprised when i read that some people can`t see it. i just thought that most of the people know that GW and Reaper are in 28mm nomore.
if you find other idea to describe the models that would be fine. on the other hand it would be cool to keep the exact measurments - i find them nice (don`t know if they`re useful, but it`s good to know what size your mini is :D ).

Matakishi

08-10-2006, 10:25 AM

I've changed my mind, list all your figures as '28mm scale' and leave it at that.

There will be pedants that point out that 28mm isn't a scale it's a measurement as if you didn't know but you can reply that it's a new scale to describe 32mm figures that are a little bit further away and this will confuse them and make them all die (just hoping here).

Accuracy and honesty are clearly not necessary in the miniatures business and you have been a poor innocent fool trying to introduce them.

Learn from yuor mistake, Lie and sell!!!!